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Episode Transcript

Tom White
Good evening to everyone joining us on the inaugural IoT hotspot conference. I am Tom white. I’m the host of the IoT podcast and joined with Rob Van kranenburg, the founder of the IoT Council and IoT day, we’re going to talk a little bit just to set the scene about how we came up with the idea of the IoT hotspot conference and talk a little bit about some of the guests that we have on today and kindly given up that time, also to talk about the wonderful world of IoT. Rob, maybe we can kick off with you just to talk a little bit about your initiative with IoT day, which is really spurred on this global presence of joining people from all four parts of the world.

Rob Van Kranenburg
Yes, yes, absolutely. So I think, sort of, for most people, this Internet of Things is seems to be quite recent, in a way and, and it’s a very strange beast, because every year sort of, we read in a newspaper, this is going to be the year of Internet of Things, this is going to be the year of Internet of Things, this is going to be the year of Internet of Things and reading that from 2000 to 2002. Now basically and it’s such a strange thing because it’s, it’s this kind of this kind of it’s kind of both a vision and an activity of connecting basically everything on the planet. Now that’s such a strange idea, if you think of it that it almost seems to be like, like a kind of a rising tide. So it’s, it’s, you get this this you think back about this, this story about the frog being boiled in, in hot water. It’s just everybody sees it and knows that it’s just the frog who doesn’t sort of knows that, that things are going on. And this is a little bit also how I felt when I stumbled on this Internet of Things, when I was still called Amy and intelligence around 2000. And I realised it was actually quite a long trajectory of automation. And, and actually, a lot of the things that that were then happening, were also sort of happening with the same people. But it was happening a lot with computer scientists was happening a lot with engineers was happening a lot with people who were busy with with efficiency and optimising processes and things. But all along, sort of this, this, this wave, this kind of rising tide, it spilled over into society sort of it it got out of the, the the process in which he was in, and it moved into the real world and moved into our everyday lives. And that’s where it’s now basically. And so I thought we really need to discuss what’s happening with but a lot of people and more people in a different variety of stakeholders. And that was a reason for for for for setting up and kicking off IoT day.

Tom White
I’m Rob thank you for that. I mean, it’s it was a fantastic initiative that you took also alongside the IoT council I think there are coming on to 600 members of the IoT council now maybe more than that. I don’t know what the up to date figures are Rob.

Rob Van Kranenburg
I think it’s it’s it’s fluctuating and there’s people coming and going and but basically it’s it’s alive on very old school mailing list for a lot of people it’s been really adding value to, to work through to their activities. And and that’s really the idea of having this kind of free. Open exchange of of information. Yes,

Tom White
yeah. Yeah. And I think that’s one of the reasons why we’re so keen to collaborate and to start this inaugural hotspot conference. So a little bit about myself. So I’m the founder and host of the IoT podcast, also involved in the consulting and staffing arena for the IoT industry with the company above me. And we joined the council. I think it was 2018. And we started having many conversations, Rob about how can we increase the voice of IoT for people that perhaps are outside of the industry. So, you know, IoT is a relatively new term, but the technology is is, is something that’s been around for a long time, right? We call it M to M, you know, before that it was just networking and so on, right? So I think where where we’re going is to create content, to raise the voice of people thought leaders in the space and to talk about some of the fantastic initiatives that can come from from IoT projects, in my background is that I spend a lot of time in the pay TV industry, working with operators and broadcasters and a phrase that I say a lot, and for anyone that’s followed the podcast is, it’s just entertainment at the end of the day, right? It’s just media, it’s just TV. Whereas I think some of the projects that are happening in IoT are truly life changing. You know, people talk about the fourth industrial revolution, and people talk about bleeding edge tech, and it’s often overused. But I think it’s fair to say we’re both very passionate about the use cases that are currently out there. And the idea behind this show, you know, is to is to produce content, and to enable people that don’t really understand the term to know what it means and why they should be concerned. And hopefully, initiatives like this together, can really raise the profile, because I think we can both agree, Rob called me that, you know, the more the more we talk about it, the more content that we we give the better for everyone involved in the industry.

Rob Van Kranenburg
Absolutely, I think it’s also this is a this is a kind of, again, it’s very strange moment, because it concerns everything. And so I mean, when you say that normally would say your I mean, it’s a crazy thing to saying sort of. But but we’re in a situation where it does concern everything it means and that means that the pie is extraordinarily big. So it is and them. The beauty of the of the operation is that, that if done well, it it will, it creates a kind of abundance of data and insights that can lead to new services. And that can lead to basically new ways of of, of operating.

Tom White
And there’s almost a limitless amount of use cases in IoT, but something that’s really come to the forefront from the pandemic, and how we get out of this and what we can do moving forward. And I hope this is something that we can touch upon today. Work with everyone that’s kindly given up their time to come and talk and to describe what they’re doing with an IoT from what I’ve read personal or business perspective. And for those that are just joining the conference a little bit a little bit later. You know, there’s there’s some fantastic people here today, and we’re thrilled to be starting this inaugural hotspot conference in collaboration, the IoT daily IoT Council.

Thomas Amberg
As an engineer, I develop software for IoT applications since quite some years. And besides, I also work a lot as a maker in the Fab Lab in the local Fab Lab, to build stuff in the easiest possible way. We’ve treated tools. And in this project, I try to combine both of it. The project itself is about media, ecological infrastructures for biodiversity. It’s a very interdisciplinary research project. also funded by the Swiss national fund. So it’s a relatively big project together with other universities. And it’s interdisciplinary in the sense that we work with biologists, ecologists, designers, and we are from the computer science section. So to say, that means we have to provide sort of an IoT infrastructure that is put in sounds that are urban and also have a lot of nature. So it’s like a mixed zone. Usually it’s parks, and we have three locations. And the first of eight is a nice botanical garden. We’ve also altered types of nature. So there’s a lot of plants and animals and also people mixing in the same soul and our deployments. Look compete like this. This is for first experiment we are doing, placing pots with one type of plant in different locations and observing them with cameras to see which pollinators are visiting the plants. So this is the requirement for us as technical team. We need network cameras in different locations, sometimes a bit far off the next building. Because it’s cameras, we need also, you know, enough bandwidth to access them. So if you need, let’s say, for tree connectivity outdoors, there are quite some products. Unfortunately, these ruggedized versions of products are usually rather expensive. There we started thinking if there’s an alternative to provide Internet connectivity to cameras, network cameras, in a maybe more cost effective way. And maybe you notice Chaos Computer Club in Germany, they organise a nice summer camp every four years that gathers about 3000 people. And there I saw this solution for connectivity that uses indoor equipment in the water tight housing, they use these toilet houses as a server rack and provide connectivity to outdoorsy users. So this would be more or less the gold standard of outdoor connectivity. We don’t have hundreds of users, but just a few cameras around one location. So the idea was to use something similar in this smaller packaging. The advantage of using off the shelf trip components is of course price. This standard 40 router is way less expensive than the ruggedized version. We also decided to use Power over Ethernet to provide power to the cameras. Together with the network. The idea is to combine these commodity building materials with cheap indoor hardware and make a ruggedized version of an access point as shown here. This was the initial drawing of the idea and you have some distances so the power line can be about 100 metres. That’s where you get to place the access point relative to power sources.

Felipe Fonseca
Then you have Power over Ethernet connections to the cameras around 30 metres Max is what we found to be still working. You also get WiFi maybe a little bit more than 30 metres. these access points are not super optimised for long distance and you get three or four three uplink. So the access point has the same cord and provides connectivity the whole setup is still a bit cheaper than using a ruggedized thoughtspot and maybe Wi Fi based cameras because we’ve Power over Ethernet to get power at the same time and otherwise he would still have to distribute the power then we get real. So the experiment is to place these pots with a type of plant in different locations in the park and watch it with the cameras to see which pollinators come with it. Later on this all should work with machine learning and automatic detection. But of course first we needed the cameras. Here this stand turned out to also be a nice table for doing work in the field. And this will be the set up the camera sees the plant from the top. This is the perspective of the camera. Here you see that it’s important to have the right section of the pot filmed then it should be as focused as possible. There we are still learning how to do it is raspberry Pay cams require manual focusing, then you need to have the power from far away. And me Here you see a bit, the first situation, it’s a pasture, the sheep are also living there in this in this middle, then we had try grasslands in another set up. Very, it’s a bit steeper. So these cameras and pots were spread all around the park was about it, I realised that this is very standard technology. And here the main challenge was to apply it to a new setting and provide technology that works together with people and can survive in a park. So to say,

Rob Van Kranenburg
absolutely, thank you, Thomas. A fascinating would say like, sort of, it’s an amazing amount of skills sort of coming together. And this not only on the interdisciplinary research aspect, but also on the practical aspects of putting it.

Marc Pous
I would like to talk about something that it’s super exciting to me. And when I joined Balena and I, and I write about these. So it gets super excited on me, and it’s Balena Hub, what do you say on the flight. So in case maybe some of you don’t know Balena. But maybe, you know, or you use Balena Architecture, I don’t know, if anyone used Balena in the room, feel free to raise your hands or to say hello on the chat. So yeah, literally raising hands, it’s very complicated.

Marc Pous
So if you use Azure, but by the way, Azure is one of the most used software, open source software to flash SD cards or USB drive with usually OS operating systems. So if you use Azure, you already use the Linux software and you understand how we do software, or how we like to do things we like to reduce the friction on every project are everything to just help people, companies, developers to reach their goal. And to try to simplify the IoT. At Balena, we also build a minimal operating system for devices, we also make container runtime for 4 billion hours, actually, Balena OS which is an open source operating system only runs containers. Okay. And we also made an IoT fleet management tool called Balena cloud and open version of Balena Cloud that it’s called Open Balena.

Marc Pous
But today, I’m not going to talk about this, okay? Actually, I’m gonna talk about one of my passions. I love making applications. I like programming. I’m not very good at it. But I would like to make applications that people use. And I have been working on IoT for the last 15 years. It’s great to see that when you make something and more an IoT, and it’s being used, and it’s being shared, and even your being remembered that that’s super great. The thing that you get, it’s really, it’s really nice. So this is why I think that programming is magic.

Marc Pous
But on the other hand, yeah, and probably, you know, if you’re here, IoT is still very hard. It’s only 21. I remember speaking with Rob, maybe like, not 10 years ago, with maybe eight years ago, speaking like IoT, it’s very challenging. But yeah, the reality is that we are helping a lot of companies and successful businesses to reduce the friction of IoT, and trying to make the IoT less hard. But we know, yeah, this is something Yeah, everyone is filling that IoT and edge applications today are still hard to build, to deploy, to use to distribute and to maintain. And I have myself dozens of experience of bad experience on on these.

Marc Pous
And actually, we have a hypotehsis at Balena- we think that people working in IoT, it’s super smart, it’s super good. But the complexity inhibits all of this innovation, that that all the people working in IoT have. And then that forgets that the IoT and edge applications or systems are still not good enough. So we need people that get smart enough. Even IoT and edge and this is why we are here? Or why we can ask why we can help you here. But let me give you an example. Okay, of what I what I say about Yeah, that maybe we are still not enough successful on IoT because the complexity is innovating the innovation.

Unknown Speaker
Let’s, let’s say raspberry pi. So actually, last year was Raspberry Pi reported that they sold, I think in the whole history, more than 30 million of Raspberry Pi’s. And actually we love Raspberry Pi, and we use Raspberry Pi a lot on Balena. But what is experienced when you buy Raspberry Pi. If you want to buy Raspberry Pi, you get these amazing kit at home? And then what do you do with this kit? Okay, so yeah, I usually do this, I go to Google, I googled Raspberry Pi projects, maybe or, but yeah, as you can see, this clearly doesn’t help a lot that this doesn’t give me the way to, to get them to master on on Raspberry Pi projects immediately. And to be honest, as a user, I expect a place where I can find nice projects to start playing immediately, once I get the Raspberry Pi. And as a developer. I expect the place where I can exposure or Yeah, how to get exposure from my developments. Okay.

Marc Pous
So if you’re a developer, and you spend several weeks coding, an amazing IoT edge application, probably you dream to enable or to facilitate other people to use your applications. And or even Yeah, get paid now for people using your applications. And this is not possible today. It is sad, but it’s not possible. Release IoT edge applications, and deploy them easily in a lot of IoT edge devices. It’s hard. So we saw Thomas before on the on the previous presentation, when they were trying to scale could imagine that they were they had to fly a lot of SD cards, etc. Or even when we asked him, Hey, do you have a machine? A machine learning model on the Raspberry Pi running? Yeah, oh, wow, it’s hard. Maybe we know, how can we deploy new services on top of this raspberry pi.

Marc Pous
So at Balena, we want to solve this problem. And actually, we are solving this problem for our customers. So we want to solve it for everyone for all the developers in the community. And yeah, and let me let me show you how we do it. We do it with Balena hub. Balena hub is a catalogue of IoT edge applications that deliver applications into devices in a really simple way. Now, developers are going to be able to reach IoT devices and users with Balena Hub.

Marc Pous
And something that it’s very interesting I mentioned before about Balena Azure so this software is being used millions of times every month. So what we want to do is to give exposure to developers the applications that they submit on balena hub, we want to get exposures of that into Balena Azure and that means that we we think that we can inspire millions of people on using applications but as well on introducing innovation on the IoT. With balena hub you will be able to distribute applications create fleets that I’m going to tell you what is a fleet in a second and it will work on on devices such as raspberry pis and video chat zones and more.

Marc Pous
So just to let you know, Balena OS is compatible with more than 70 different devices from Intel devices to arm devices. So that means that even if you write the code for one application, you can make almost automatically these application compatible with 70 different devices in the world. So that’s that’s really cool for a developer. So let’s take a look inside the Balena Hub. So today, well maybe it’s a bit small but on the left menu you can go to have that blend out as well and check it yourself Meanwhile, I’m speaking but on the left menu, you have three options actually you have fleets, you have projects and you have blocks and in the centre you can see all the applications for that category. Okay. By the way, just to mention something else, all the applications that are on Balena Hub are open source and these are non commercial projects, okay. They should be non commercial projects to be on Balena Hub. So let’s, yeah, let’s let’s let me tell you what, it’s an open fit before. I get into into this but an open fleet, it’s an IoT project or for for IoT on edge devices where the users can join the device without creating Balena Cloud account.

Unknown Speaker
So usually our customers, they have a fleet of devices. So they have a lot of devices that are all around the world. And this is a fleet for for us. So when we say, an open fleet on Balena hub, that means that, yeah, I as an app developer, or as an app owner, it is an application. And everyone who joins that application joins my fleet. So I can manage and maintain that fleet if there is a back on my GitHub repository, and I do a pull request to, to solve that back. And then I do I push this code, or I push a new release of this code, all the devices that belong to my application, they get the new release, and it’s deployed automatically to them.

Unknown Speaker
So let’s imagine Yeah, let me give you an example of this. So let’s imagine that I have for you have some old speakers at home, some old hi-fi equipment at home that yeah, that it doesn’t work anymore with your Bluetooth or with your Spotify. So you want to convert that as a Bluetooth speaker. So we have an app for that. It’s called Balena sound and let me show you Yeah, how Balena sound works, or it can help you actually currently yesterday is I took this screenshot yesterday- there were 191 people all around the world, who joined the fleet of Balena sound to digitalize their old speakers or old hi fi equipment and control it over Bluetooth with their mobile phones and run Spotify or whatever. Okay, so yeah, there is a fleet so the the fleet when you click get started, actually what happens? And I think I have a screenshot for that, is that you? We tell you, we asked you Okay, what device you have, you have a Pi Zero, you have a PI three pi four, you have an Intel Mac, then you introduce your what your Wi Fi credentials, and what do you get. It’s an operating system image from Balena with your Wi Fi credentials.

Marc Pous
And when you flash that operating system image in an SD card, like like these. Yeah, like they seem to sit on your Raspberry Pi, in this case, Pi Zero, for example. And automatically you have join with your Wi Fi credentials that you already introduced here, you join the bilena sound, open fleet. And you can start enjoying Balena sound on your device. In case there is a bad or there is a new feature that’s included on the project. The the app owner in this case, it’s the Balena team, the Balena hardware team will deploy the new the new release, and your device will get the latest release of the Balena Sound.

Peter Van Waart
Well, I’m glad to be here and now talk about a little bit about the IoT day in Rotterdam and my experiences. So, with that 10 years of promoting it thinking and research, education and practice. And I will tell something about my experience in in Yeah, getting IoT thinking around in our region. 10 years ago as a lecturer and researcher at the Rotterdam University of Applied Sciences, I took the initiative to help organise the international IoT day edition in Rotterdam. Because I thought it would be a good idea to introduce my colleagues and our students from our digital technology courses to their developments of IoT and to see cooperation with local governments and businesses.

Peter Van Waart
Over the years, and with great support of our research centre at the University of Rotterdam. IoT Day Rotterdam grew into an event with hundreds of participants. I think the last two, three years we have about 300 participants participating in our event that isn’t the event of one or two days. And so, yeah, the audience’s is has been growing over the years. And now after 10 years of organising IoT Day Rotterdam I see technological developments such as IoT, but also AI and Smart City, getting lots of attention in our region.

Peter Van Waart
I will tell something about my experiences and my collaboration between our university and local governments and businesses and society. I will speak about the theory verus innovation about research versus practice, about the benefit of doing things rather than talking, and the challenge of interdisciplinary systems thinking and design, and yet what we’ve got to research or practice, I think that this mutual learning between the universities and the governments and businesses is needed for another reason. As a University of Applied sciences, we train our students not to become researchers, but to become practitioners. However, to prepare future professionals who are contributing to innovation and practice in the future, both universities of Applied Sciences, as well as businesses have to learn about these emerging technologies.

Peter Van Waart
And they can learn about these technologies at the same time doing the compilation in the way we do it is a way we can both innovate our curriculum, and both help businesses with innovation, their practice, but especially also, especially when dealing with the engineering and the design of infrastructures that pervade everyone’s lives, and living environments. We need to engage a civic society, to bring in people’s perspectives in our challenges. And that’s what we have done in in the last years, we shifted from this Triple helix paradigm on to work quadrple helix paradigm, where we really tried to evolve civic society and civic organisations and citizens in our city.

Peter Van Waart
And I’d like to mention especially is that I discovered that it was very useful to stop talking and start doing in our internet of things today, we, we always have a hackathon. And this hackathon was an important activity for us to bring different stakeholders of the quadruple helix to the table, not only to present our ideas or to discuss their ideas, but especially to make prototypes. Then, I’d like to conclude this so thinking about its disciplinary systems thinking and design, also at our university. I think that now after 10 years, it’ll become clear to us what our challenges now they are at University of Applied Sciences. And first of all, that our separate courses such as a digital design, or computer science, or architecture, or civil engineering, fall short in our own discipline to tackle larger societal challenges we are facing, such as climate change, energy, transition of poverty, or creating livable and Resilient Cities and Communities.

Peter Van Waart
And especially with regard to encourage our developments, for example, it’s becoming important how to safeguard human aspects in decision making, and to shift from artificial intelligence to collective intelligence. More than ever before our universities need to rethink their programmes in order to deliver professionals to the market that know how to collaborate with other disciplines. And in our connected world, it is becoming crucial to understand the network independencies of systems in all domains of society and not society alone. Also, the planet is at stake. So where the quadruple helix collaborations are useful for societal challenges, it is insufficient for dealing with challenges in our natural environment and to bring in the force of nature of our flora and fauna. And for influencing our climate and biodiversity we should act from our day. Quinto, quintuple helix paradigm. We as people both need technology and nature. So to conclude my talk for now I would like to discuss the topics I presented to you I see two children challenges ahead for myself as a coordinator smart city theme as a university and as a researcher and lecturer but also for the it community as a whole.

Peter Van Waart
And I think we see two challenges. The first one is how we can shift once a collective intelligence as a result of responsible innovation that is safeguarding public and democratic values, designers, technological systems. And second, how to share from thisquadruple helix to a quintuple periodontal in order to account for our natural environment. And I hope that 10 years from now, we have succeeded defining the methods and technologies to tackle those challenges. And I wish a Godspeed, to all of the journey. And I’d like to thank you for your attention. Thank you very much.

Felipe Fonseca
My talk today is mainly about the focus of my research. And I call it since the last two months I’m calling it reuse.city smart in smart cities is often about control. It has this idea of increasing the efficiency of cities, whatever that is, and as a lot of very interesting, critical discussion about that in recent literature. I think one of the the easiest to follow is a pamphlet written by Adam Greenfield called against the smart city. And I remember he talks very precisely about efficiency being very hard to measure in cities. So what is efficiency? When you have issues of power? And and policies that are not implemented or not even created? How do you measure efficiency,

Felipe Fonseca
Smart cities are also usually a very, they adopted a top down approach. They ignore the legacy of urbanism. There is the there are hundreds of of interesting references, talking about the rights to the city that are not taken into account when people discuss smart cities, they are arguably of little benefit to people. So when you talk about increasing increasing the efficiency from the standpoint of the public administration, it’s often about reducing costs. And it is very rare that you see Smart City initiatives discussing with the population, sometimes they kind of fake discussions, as you can see, for instance, in the sidewalk labs project in Canada, and there was this attempt at using citizen participation to legitimise the project. But in the end, I think Google and sidewalk decided to give up on the project because they were not actually listening to people, they were not trying to increase or to improve the citizens lives. But they were just trying to push technology and to make that kind of, you know, a way to show their technologies. And there is no challenge to the status quo in most of the Smart City projects.

Felipe Fonseca
So I come from this critical perspective on what Smart Cities usually are, or the mainstream narrative or of smart cities, or smart cities, usually brains. And I’m trying to bring that into my research. So there is in the as I mentioned, there is very, very little opportunity for the cities and the citizens and it’s I’m trying to change this this term I’m not, I’m not that comfortable using citizen anymore being a foreign citizen in an urban country. But the people who are the city dwellers, they are not asked whether they want to refuse the top down smarting projects. And in my project as proposed by the open dock project, I will try to seek kinder and fairer and citizen centred series. So usually see is much city initiatives focusing on traffic control or lighting or surveillance. Sometimes it’s about access to city dwellers. Sometimes it’s about energy management and sensors and environment and quality of air, quality of water and power projects about inventory of public public goods.

Felipe Fonseca
But there is one particular topic that I found I could contribute a lot to. And the topic is waste management. But again, when it comes to Smart City literature and industry references, wherever you see about smart cities that relates to waste management is always again focused on the needs and the problems facing issues, the issues faced by companies and governments, you see a lot of projects, talking about smart buildings and increasing the efficiency of household waste collection. There is this, this kind of bias towards making waste disappear as quickly as possible. And I think there’s some kind of psychological element to that. And there is very little citizen agency, we did talk about waste and smart cities. And the end goal seems to be always about increasing the amount of waste that is recycled.

Felipe Fonseca
Reuse city – so this started in April this year as an online Co-Design Lab, with participants from 10 different countries. And I had the opportunity to organise a series of online workshops in which we will discuss reuse and smart cities. And how does that connect to community practices of repair of upcycling and recirculation of materials. And we ended up having very interesting discussions about reuse centres and different kinds of technology that could help on that. And I ended up focusing on three prototypes, I have conducted this co design lab with participants from different parts of the world. And we decided to focus on three different concept ideas that a from earlier phases of research, but then they were also informed by these discussions with participants.

Felipe Fonseca
The first of them, I was calling the universal registry of things. So it is this concept of distributed database that would have information about how to reuse different kinds of objects and materials, and would make this information available for different users. So it would be a way to check on if I find for instance, I don’t know a bike, or someone gives me a bike. And I can quickly find information about the parks, and what I can do that and what is its value on the second hand market, and other kinds of information like that, and stories of users. And that can apply to a bike or to a computer or a mobile phone or any kind of object virtually.

Felipe Fonseca
Then the second prototype, I’m calling it Ei, the evaluation interface, that would be ways to connect to that database, the universal database or to the universal register of things. So we can think in terms of sorry, there are workshops here, so we might be hearing noise in the background. So it can be either a smartphone app that I could point to an object and then find information about how to reuse that object. Or it could be a workbench machine, or what when, what base machine that I could bring objects to it. And then the machine would recognise and give me information about, you know, spare parts and tools and stories of other users.

Felipe Fonseca
And finally, the third, the third concept idea that I was working with participants on was the idea of transformation labs that is somehow related to makerspaces and also to reuse centres. But it will have this focus not on making new stuff. And not only on recirculating secondhand goods, but also on allowing people from cities and communities to go to these places and bring objects to be either repaired or transformed into other things or transformed in any way. And then this is the conceit of my research. I’m trying to turn these three ideas of the database, the technologies to access the database, and the places in the cities and trying to sum all of them into sort of fictional or speculative prototypes and to discuss how technology can be implemented both in these spaces as well as in these technologies.

Andrey Filippov
So we introduce this panel like before financial models which are applied in different IoT applications, and especially about the ethical dimensions how it could be applied. They already know what all the cases, which brings us to the very scary world, about how we different things, which connected around us could collect a lot of information. And when we start to speak about the data collections, we already start to think about the person and what kind of a personal data could be collected in most of the contemporary systems, they belong to so called ecosystems. And for example, when we are talking about the apple, we understand what we were just tried to control your own ecosystem and all devices which belongs to that he understands what the privacy and the data collections and the financial models about what they definitely have a dimension, when we go to the one ecosystem, usually we cannot go out from red, we so called the network effects, which from a design point of view, and coordinate the different portfolio strategies.

Andrey Filippov
And when you try to go in, you definitely invest a lot of money to belong to one system. And usually you can switch from one to now one, when you would like to do it, you will worst what have you, let’s say capital financial or beta capital, whatever. And so, this is very important, when we are talking about view, IoT architecture, we should understand what different systems which are united in one big platform, they can definitely control you in the remote control with the second dimension, which are very important for us.

Andrey Filippov
This remote control, significantly influence of on our data and how our system operated. In science, we are talking about the ethical dimension of it, you should understand what science, we have more and more data around us, we can go deeply and deeply devout, some so called our medical psychological. And some I think we will go on more deep level which called in big controversy against technologists, which will allow us to understand we control about the human body, even on DNA level, it’s a lot of the experiments which provide for us, for example, what if we can correct to one on our DNA cells, we could be more happy or something like that. And this is exactly report and when we go to the financial models, and how you structure them for IoT, and for smart contracts, applications, who could use his data, and how it could be used.

Andrey Filippov
And I know for example, from row one from the book, he contributed a lot in these identify, and then identity and education’s questions. And here, we can understand what kind of way in the locations who will be resourceful with some vacations, if the person has the right to control your own data, if he can ask the corporations or state to delete them, how it can be stored, and how it will be managed. From the, let’s say, public point of view, I would like to say what’s most important here is how we can bring all this information in understandable story for people for the common people. Because most of the, let’s say video productions, articles and pictures, they usually highlight for some dramatic picture. Or it could be either physical systems or cyberphysical world. And there’s, for example, robotics, they could say, control human and they all could be out of control. And this is very important if you could build the nice story about the ethical obligations in financial models in this physical world, which connected between the people between the machines and machines, and how to be organised.

Andrey Filippov
And it’s not easier when you go to the practical dimension, because we understand what we have at least four or five huge corporations or state back back at corporations who has a different nature in joensuu. The videos we can say about Russia, about China and about Europe, about the United States companies were built on the different backgrounds they finance at home. Different things, most likely it could be from the state, it could be the defence department, or it could be corporate approach. And all these things will definitely influence the models and how these models could be structured, if you from the beginning, would like to control or manipulate or direct manipulate. Or you should build your overheads human financial or very, it’s definitely around this, let’s say, windows and the ethical things will belong to people, we understand, for example, what China has his own WeChat echo system or Ali ecosystem. And in the United States, we have corporate ecosystems more or less the same in Russia. And in China, you know what, these systems more or less belong to the state. But when we are going to the corporations, it’s quite hard to find the backgrounds who control data and who invent the ogre. It’s in how we use with, especially after the new phenomenon about the depth of depth forum, which we observed last year, it’s definitely been a new trend.

Andrey Filippov
And we are talking about the Internet of Things. It’s exactly the important point for us. For example, what do we all do, if someone decided to switch off our security system, our food chain system, whatever, our transport safety systems, and it’s not clear how we can organise all these things together. And to achieve the some practical results. From the approach. I would like to say, what these good story about the IOD financial models belongs to be some kind of joint work from very different perspectives. In terms of the development of the kind of philosophy.

Rob Van Kranenburg
Specifically, I would say very important to align the work going on in Russia with the work going on in Europe at the moment, especially around these digital around this digital currencies. And the way I understand it is that you are sort of a sort of, yeah, you have this kind of economic thinking. This in which you try to, to, to embed a kind of value system, before this new digital currency actually becomes becomes live and takes over this new kind of this new kind of connected environment. This is very important. And this is, I think, something that’s lacking today in in the way that Europe is thinking about it, which is much more much more in terms of economic efficiency. Am I correct? in sort of understanding this? Or?

Andrey Filippov
Yes, you’re fully correct, because definitely when we are going a little bit up for financial models, we should understand the economic models or political economic models and we understand what in the world we have more or less kind of capitalism on natural capitalism and a lot of the thinkers I mean from even from a Western rope, they already told what this system is not working at all or not working for people. And when we are going to what kind of system we would like to craft we should understand the backbone of this system. And definitely we should understand the values of this backbone, should the system have some kind of let’s say basic income for all or this is not acceptable, for example. And these financial models also could be part of that, if we can introduce on your layer of smart contracts, some kind of basic income or whatever the social dimension like say, social prescriptions, when from which you have translations. You can send some kind of money for your pension funds, or do you work relative, so whatever to some people who would like to contribute things, some community development in the interim.

Andrey Filippov
So we start to sort of internet of things in Russia, I would like to say what we are very good position, we have several state level programmes dedicated to the development of the digital economy. And as a sub tech, definitely we have IoT track, and most of our corporations, telecommunications and income information corporations. They have his own approach for IoT and this, let’s say turn very understandable by common people and by our decision makers. And I would like to say Russia’s on the right track here. And also we cooperate. For example, with European partners with China, we work a lot on different digital publications. And if some particular questions I can comment more, but from a general point of view, if we compare the station like 10 years ago, when you start out with our Russian research centre or something like that, no one understand what is meaning of Internet of Things that was not understand. But today’s understandable term. And we have different associations dedicated to that, and different initiatives, how to develop how to build the products around it. And of course, we have our own IoT platforms and quite good one.

Joshua Opoku Agyemang
So if you go to IoT on internet, you see a number of phrases always on the screen on the internet, you see some Internet of Things, embedded internet, Internet of Everything, industrial Internet, and a lot. So basically, when we talk about IoT, we talking about a combination of hardware and software technology that are going to produce tyrians of data to connected multiple devices and sizes. There’s a period of speakers mentioned and presented a number of solutions applications of those. Yeah, yeah, yeah, sessions. And these data are going to be, we’re going to make sense out of this data using an intelligent tool, such as a machine learning the AI algorithms, and then the race. So we’re looking at anything, living and nonliving things, regardless of the locations, or physical restrictions connected to the internet. So the next phase of my presentation is going to be on the IT community rebuilding in Africa, to our community, we started back in 2016. And as of today, we have about 7000 membership across 10 African countries in Africa. Of course, from Allen Kenny said, the best way to predict the future is to invent it. So according to research, Africa is going to be the next continent with Elijah’s population of youth, the next 10 years by 2030. And majority of our youth are going to be utilised 25 years, the next 10 years. So we see that it’s it’s a need for us to build capacity of ATM pa them, they, they imagine technologies are able to solve Africans problem.

Joshua Opoku Agyemang
So as a community, we are community of innovators, inventors, developers, makers, and our corporate forces coming together to explore these emerging technologies of the 21st century to solve Africa’s problem. So our sort of aspiration has been in the Internet of Things, robotics, 3d printing, artificial intelligence, among others. So our vision is to become a hub of emerging technologies in Africa. And admission to the digital communities and power with emerging technologies to solve an Africans problem, aka goals has been to build a vibrant tech ecosystem across the African continent, and was also to democratise digital skills for the 21st century. We also want to foster creative thinking, problem solving and innovation. So our core values has been learning, sharing and building what our past five years of operation will be having consistent monthly meetup since 2016. So now, and through that, we’ll be able to also do the live audience reach out to a number of people, or a number of presidents on the African continent. And we’re also engaged in events, Why shall be hackathons, we also undertake a number of projects, and also doing more research and development we focus on SDG.

Joshua Opoku Agyemang
So our next phase is be able to build more solutions, and then build I mentioned startups. In the next five years, we’re hoping to have our chapters across all the African countries. And then we’ll do started states chapters. So within each country, we created sub sub groups within the country for the states or regions.

Joshua Opoku Agyemang
We’ve also taken duties to the university campuses because we believe that the future of work and skills has changed. And there’s a need to make sure all the tertiary students being aware, especially in our part of the world allocation system, highly change. So we bring their community to the universities so that the student can also get to see where the future work will be. I’m afraid I’m still waiting. I’ll probably do it. so far. We have a number of chapters covering the AI Community running. From sorry from Ghana, we have Nigeria, Kenya and in the race on board. And so the initiative will undertake over the past five years has been to get more women or girls already in STEM. When we started, a lot of ladies were not attending our metre. So what I pass Yes, so with this initiative, we’re able to get a great number of women to also join this revolution. We’ve also started a robotics space where we run robotics training door robotics, and then explore their technologies. We have Watson’s centred activities for kids to engage kids in STEM education as well we believe this engagement how them those the critical thinking skills, the problem solving skills, collaboration and teamwork at a very young age was Yeah, having fun.

Joshua Opoku Agyemang
We have the high Coronavirus initiative, which started last year when COVID hit Ghana in March. And our jet you want to research and find solutions to fight COVID-19 and a number of solutions that we came up with our feature in a slide I will share when it comes to okay then we have a 3d printing groups focus on building 3d printers. And then as point that technology, we have the IoT space which is a recent initiative we are starting because we realised that in our part of the world education awareness, as far as the military are concerned is very low. So we started the show podcast to bring this technologies to the average person in Africa. Then we have the IoT campus where we engage the campuses of the future of skills, our work, then, we also look into space exploration and edge computing in the media.

Joshua Opoku Agyemang
So among stem projects, according to Albert Einstein, he said we can also be promised the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. So what I propose is we have a series of problems in Africa that we believe that in order for us to to solve most of this problem we use imagining all these would have to change our thinking.

Joshua Opoku Agyemang
So these are some pictures from arts which is from attache engagements, where we take them through IoT cycle building with open source headways. While others also take our duties to secondary cycle institutions where we engage students in robotics and electronics and IoT. We also engage their junior secondary schools to their stem or stem or we have them exposed to via our social science awards, a steady printing and as you know, kids were so engaged kids in robotics.

Joshua Opoku Agyemang
Soone of our workshops with these kids were able to use local materials wood, and he was a couple of electronics devices to those these robots, which was luckily those so we have the Arduino Nano ultrasonic sensor motors, lots of driveline batteries, my kids were able to build this, each sky with a broad level. And so that’s it for our training programmes. So when it comes to developmental assets are changing or capacity building, we also explore how we can do SETI with so IoT devices with Alexa resources we have and these are some of the projects we have built over the past years.

Joshua Opoku Agyemang
So you have the smart thermostats smart paint to monitor then and then send the data to the cloud will smash switch where we can control there are switches which are far from where we are and collect data via energy consumption and current. These are some of the finished prototypes we have built over the years. And this project since when COVID came to away as flow the same technologies to build a number of solutions to help them comment. This is a 3d printed face masks which is reasonable recyclable and low costs. We also count the face showed to hardware for liners. We also came with a mass trap the year sorry the nose mass was he in the years when you put down for so so long so we can’t wait this the help you handed the 3d printed also had smart buckets so whenever can we have in Ghana here and Africa almost a normal bucket with a time face. So usually how to open a tie wash your hands and when you’re finished washing hands you need to touch it. And these buckets were exposed to the public everybody was in it. So we saw that the rise to also stay on surfaces for a while so there’s a need to avoid touch touching surfaces so that we came up with this automated also candidate disinfectant boots where the body is being sprayed once you walk into it, a sensor sensor and then spray it on you for some minutes before you leave.

Joshua Opoku Agyemang
There also those handheld thermometer guns, it’s really printed the casing and also how many bytes in it. So honest solution we’re looking at is massachi. Ghana happens to be one of the country with the highest, he was an air pollution. So we’re looking at how best we can collect the data, vironment and help policymakers make informed decisions. According to the former UN Secretary, he said, in a society that doesn’t also see it in tapping into the energy and creativity or which it will be left behind. So as a community and as a president of the community, our focus has been how we can prepare the youth for the fourth industrial revolution. Africa has been catching up for the past revolutions, we’re hoping that with this form Industrial Revolution, to be able to also join the race and prepare Africa for the future.

Tedjumade Afonja
Hi, everyone. My name is Tedjumade Afonja. And I’m the co founder of AI sister Lagos. I’m currently a master’s student as well, and university, also a machine learning researcher. It’s a pleasure to be here today and to talk to you about some of my work and also about machine learning about machine learning, and deep learning. The way I like to think of machine learning are just a bunch of algorithms that are here to help us make sense of data.

Tedjumade Afonja
As you all know, we have increasingly in a society where more more and more data are being thrown at us. And we need to be able to find some hidden correlation, something that we might not be able to do as programmers in the past, the way you would think about solving such problem would be to programme it by hand, like write a bunch of rows, but machine learning enable or allow you to be able to programme without explicitly programming. So you just make sure you have lots of data, you pass the data into some function, and then you have your hotspots. So the job of your your model is to learn the eating correlation with the inputs and the outputs. And volar. You have your favourite cognition model, which is probably another story for another day.

Tedjumade Afonja
Another example you can think of is like, say machine translation. So is it possible to have a language and some some sentences in one language and you want to translate it to another language? Let’s say, I have audiences that are currently on this live stream that they don’t speak English, or they don’t understand English? Is it possible to have real time translation of what I’m saying to a language that they’re familiar with, which brings me to another purchase a purchase that I am working on, which is all about accent translation? So the question really, is that, is it possible for us to model accent or to be able to translate from one person’s accent to another? Let me motivate the question problem properly.

Tedjumade Afonja
So it’s not in use that different region, a different part of the world have different various accents in which they’re speaking for some of my Nigerian friends. And they probably already know that I’m Nigerian, because I speak like in Nigeria, and whatever it is that it means to them might be different. But the main point is that everyone has their own unique voice or the way they speak. And sometimes the unique voice is particular to a particular region, or any particular nation. So we found correlation, like and some of this is also my own lived experience is that it takes more time to understand content, if it’s presented in an accent that you’re not familiar with. So the question the research question, really, is that is it possible to be able to translate a problem? Or like, we go LSP down to say, a, an online learning platform? Is it possible to present this to you in an accent that you are familiar with?

Tedjumade Afonja
And you can think about all of this such problem, I think about how it should help improve a lot of a lot of people’s a lot of people’s understanding and, and one of one of the motivation really is that you think about inequality, it on equal access? Yes, there are a lot of resources out there right now that you can say that you have massive open online, online courses. You have YouTube channels. But the hoglet should still is that there’s still a lot of barrier to be able to access this like. So it’s still there’s still a gap to fill. And I don’t think like having just one model or one accent or one language or whatnot is going to be the solution to our problem. We need to be able to adapt technology to the local users, whatever works best for them, we need to start building tools for that, even if there is no incentive to be able to do that. So my my team read that we’re trying to the problem we’re focused on is that can we can we do accent translation? can we improve online learning by by translating an English content to an accent that you’re familiar with? Whether or not it’s possible? That’s research? That’s the question we are asking.

Aishatu Gwadabe
My name is Aishatu Gwadabe and I will be presenting to you some of the lessons learned and the learnings from the IoT slam 2021 Conference on Women splaining. And I was part of the career pivot panel. And in particular, I was also sharing my experience of becoming an AI technologist. And as you can see, in this image, there were a lot of women who participated in this event. And it was hosted by Sudha Jamthe technology futurist and Roxie Simpson. And there were about 28 female business leaders celebrating the accomplishments, and we were spotlighting the career pivots they have made to get them where they are today.

Aishatu Gwadabe
And I will be sharing with you my career pivot as becoming an AI technologist. And I’m a visual artist, I’m a peace technologist, and I’m a conversation designer, and public speaker. And you can find me on LinkedIn, Twitter, and I have a website where you can find my art as well. To give you more an idea about why I call myself a peace technologist. So peace is kind of my compass, anything that I do, whether it’s work related, or privately, when I’m engaging in activities, I always try to find ways how I can improve the lives of society, how I can increase peaceful societies.

Aishatu Gwadabe
And here I want to give you a few examples of technology that I’ve worked on while going through my journey towards an AI technologist. So I was looking into how can use AI for conflict prediction, how can use AI for social justice, how I can use it for language preservation and for edutainment as part of this AI lab. So I wanted to look into solution that was tackling one of the Sustainable Development Goals and particular Sustainable Development Goals 16, which is about peace, justice, and strong institutions. And as I mentioned, I was working on this conflict between nomadic cattle herders and farmers.

Aishatu Gwadabe
So of course, the question that I wanted to ask myself was, how, what if we could predict violent conflicts between nomadic cattle herders and sedentary farmers in Sub Saharan Africa before they arise and help stop them? How could we use technology to do that. And while I was doing my research, as peace expert, of course, prevention is the key. Because when you look at the numbers, there are about 74 million people currently facing acute food insecurity. And there are about 70.8 million people who will be fleeing their countries by 2030. So there’s really an urgency in developing these kinds of solutions. And I looking into natural language processing, also known as NLP or computational linguistics, which is a subfield of artificial intelligence, machine learning and linguistics. And a branch of AI and it helps computers or machines understand, manipulate and interpret human language.

Aishatu Gwadabe
So I was looking into that into how I could use leverage NLP for the language hausa, because I’m originally also from Nigeria. So how so was kind of the language, I thought that would make the most impact, as there are over 150 million speakers worldwide. And then while I was working on this, I realised that language barrier is a huge problem. And that we needed really to work on this issue. And as you can see there already 52 languages worldwide on the African continent that already have undergone language death, therefore there’s really an array See, to work on this. And why African NLP because by increasing the capacity between different countries on the African continent to communicate and to translate, we can also increase dialogue and communication and peace in the world and also bridge the language gap.

Aishatu Gwadabe
I also participated in the women in AI, and robotics accelerator. And I was continuing to work on this idea. And to give you an idea about AI for social justice, I participated in a hackathon, where we run the grantwatch Grand Prize because we developed an app against a bias in the criminal justice system. And here I can show you a little bit about how this app looks like it shows this famous compass algorithm and we decided to develop a normalised score to show how the person should have been judged fairly instead.

Aishatu Gwadabe
So this is kind of an app that can help judges decide, make better decisions, and not solely rely on the compass algorithm, but also look into other examples of why maybe a person might have been judged in a different way and why that person might have received a specific score.

Aishatu Gwadabe
And maybe another example I want to share before the end of the this my slot. One of the latest things I’ve been working on is conversational AI, and I developed a serious game voice skill called follow. And it’s an immersive educational series game about the Fulani people, which is going to be published on the for the Alexa and here I was trying to explore how you can use conversational AI to to develop an educational content, and at the same time, preserve the culture and knowledge of this Fulani, of the Fulani tribe of West Africa.

Sudha Jamthe
Hello, everybody. I’m sudha Jamthe and I’m super excited to join you here. And I’m joining here from California. So it’s morning for you- but happy evening. Good evening, Europe, hope you’re having a fantastic session. It’s just amazing to see the lineup and some of them are people I follow and have conversations in the IoT Council. So I’m super excited to go back and listen to the podcast and all the ones I missed.

Sudha Jamthe
I am here to talk to you about IoT day of women’s planning, which is an event that we organised and I organised along with this person, Roxy Simpson right here. She’s a data IoT data leader from f5. And I am so thankful to this amazing set of women from around the globe who came from time to women’s play in a topic, and help us understand about IoT and data from IoT and AI from IoT and how they carry or pivoted to do the wonderful things that they were doing.

Sudha Jamthe
And as you can see, there are about 28 women in here, including us. And the way we set it up was we said, every nine o’clock in every time zone, we want one IoT expert to go give a session. So the way we did that was I’m here in California. So my evening, the previous day was nine o’clock in Singapore. And that’s when we kicked it off. So we had a series of sessions that was set up to stream and it kept going live all through our night. And in the morning in Europe and Nigeria. And then morning, my time here. rocks here, I picked it up. And we said okay, from nine o’clock our time till four o’clock, we will do live sessions with multiple panels. And we started with the carrier pivot session. We had a whole bunch of keynotes and discussions. You must have already heard Aishatu Gwdabe. She’s a pitch peace technologist. You must have heard from Tejumade Afonja. She’s deep learning scientists. We had a panel with her and two of her colleagues here Adetola and Olivagunay from Nigeria joined her Bala both of them are deep learning engineers, data scientists. So it was such a fun discussion. And I want to what I’m going to talk about today is about no code AI.

Sudha Jamthe
So no code AI is essentially how a business user can build artificial intelligence using code without actually coding, right? So the first step is because AI is trained using data, you get training data. And then the air doesn’t know what is data, what data is good data, bad data, how does it make decisions, so we have to group the training data into what are called classes. And then we build the model is simple. So the next three minutes, I’m going to focus on data because that is what is the brains of the AI that is what powers the AI. So when you’re building no code AI, what you’re essentially doing is you’re focused on this data, getting the training data.

Sudha Jamthe
So training, data can be images, sounds, numbers, anything. So if you want to teach the AI to identify a dog, you get a bunch of dog pictures. And you get a variety of pictures. So here, this dog has a background, it is in the field, here, the it’s there is no background, here, there’s another object next to it. This is a very interesting looking dog. And it doesn’t have to be one dog, here’s a bunch of puppies, and they are in a box. And there’s a background too. So you get the idea. So that’s how you end up showing a lot more. Right? So let me turn it fullscreen.

Sudha Jamthe
What if we want to teach the AI to identify a mop? mop, right? So here again, I’ve collected variety of different maps. And look at that. This is looks like a dog, but it’s really a mop. So this is kind of to trick the AI. So when you train a AI, you’re trying to get variety of data so that it understands all kinds of context by which it will understand the object. So the second thing is to organise this. So we saw two set of images. One is dogs, one is mop, so you just say here’s class one dogs, here’s class two mops, and then you build a model.

Sudha Jamthe
So to build a model, I’m going to go and do one, a model that is called dog versus mop. And now you can see, here’s two dogs, and they could go as dogs or mob. And we as humans can actually find that out. So I’m going to use a tool called teachable machine. It’s a no code AI platform. And I have set it up here. So I literally have not done too much prep here. So you can actually catch me doing this live. So I went to teachable machine dot with google.com. And, and they gave me three options. So I clicked on start, and they ended up with three options. So I’m going to do image project cross one, and I’m going to say one classes, dogs. I’m doing this live, it fails, it fails, but it’s going to work, you’re going to do this with me. Okay?

Sudha Jamthe
So essentially, I’ve created three or two of these classes. I don’t want a third class, I just clicked by mistake. So what I’m going to do is I’m going to upload some dog images. Okay, so let’s see, do I have dog images? Here, I have dog 125. And I just got these dog pictures from the internet. Here we go. Now I’m going to mops. And I showed you pictures, right what I showed in the in the deck. So I’m going to go find the map. And it’s finding me a bunch of map. So I’m taking map one. And and there is no limit on how many data that you can actually use. But what I’m going to do is I’m going to show a lot of different pictures done. So here I put this picture which look like a dog, but it’s not a mob. Okay, so just to make sure that we have enough. And then the next step is you train the model.

Unknown Speaker
Here we go. I start training, training, training, training, and it’s training. And it’s almost done. It is done such the tab. Okay, won’t. And it says the model is done. And here we go. And I’m going to turn into a file and say here I want to upload. So what are we doing here? So let me take a step back. So we got a group of images and said, Here’s these are dogs, we got a group of images and we said these are mops, we group them. So that’s our training data. We clicked train the model and train the model. And the next step is all AI is going to say, Yes, I’m done. And I have a model.

Unknown Speaker
So it is left to us to figure out whether it is right, how efficient it is how well it is performing. So this is the stage where I’m doing where I’m validating the model. So I’m going to choose an image and say hey, do you know so I just have another picture here you can see this one. I’ve kept I’ve called that a test one. And I’m going to put that here and as a human would you call this a dog RMR. And the API says it is 75% confident it’s a dog 25% it thinks it’s a mop. So if you look at this, this could go for a mop, because it seems to have some kind of handle. But then hey, it seems to have a tongue. So as a human, I would say it’s a dog. So if you notice this number, it is not 100% confident, because the kind of dogs it has seen, or only this and all of them somehow it has figured out that sticking its tongue is a factor in determining that it’s a dog.

Unknown Speaker
So, what we can do to improve the performance of this model is to actually give it more training data. So we can give it some more training data and retrain the model again. And that is what we heard Christine talk about that it is able to continuously learn. So now it is ready. And we can send it out. What if this is a self driving car, and it is not confident on what object it sees on the road, I would want it to go out with 75% confident what it is robotic surgical arm, I want it I do not want it to go do any kind of surgery on me. If it is coming with 70% degree of confidence in 25%. I don’t know if I need to move. And so I would say I would like to get to 100% but AI is never 100%.

Unknown Speaker
So if you’re interested to move to the field of AI after listening to everybody, and you’re fascinated by all the IoT that is actually creating those jobs. I would say Look at this. This is Business School of ai.com slash jobs. And the fascinating thing and you can connect with me as a follow up if you’re interested you can tweet at me at SU GMT and I’m happy to you know follow up with you if you’re interested and get any guidance.

 

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