Decoding the State of IoT: Common Myths and Strategies for Success

Tom White:
Hey Leonard, welcome to the IoT Podcast.

Leonard Lee:
Hey, how’s it going? Thanks for having me on, Tom.

Tom White:
Yeah, good. Yeah, you’re very welcome. You’re very welcome. It’s definitely overdue, right? I’ve been, you know, honored to be on your podcast, the IoT Coffee Talk, for several episodes now. I think quite a while. I know I’ve missed a few, but I’m really thankful for you to hop onto ours and to tell our listeners who you are and what you do and how you got into this wonderful world.

Leonard Lee:
Yeah, yeah, I was thinking exactly that. I was thinking, when is this guy gonna invite me on to?

Tom White:
Do you know what? It’s funny you should say that

Leonard Lee:
You’ve had Bob on, you’ve had Stephanie on, I mean.

Tom White:
because yes,

Leonard Lee:
Ha ha ha.

Tom White:
I know, I know. And I actually said that to Katie and Katie’s going to listen to this back and I said, do you know what? We really need to invite Leonard, right? Like Leonard drives to Coffee Talk and we’ve

Leonard Lee:
No, I’m gonna have to correct you. We’re gonna have to come back to that, okay? So, but, yes.

Tom White:
had like Okay, all right, all right. Well, in my view, from an outsider’s point of view, when I first came onto the coffee talk, I was like, well, Leonard sends the invites, right? Leonard kind of herds people together. It’s a kind of consortium of efforts, but I was like, we really need to get Leonard on, right? I know, if I was him, I’m sure he’d be thinking, have I done something or whatever? So it is definitely over to you.

Leonard Lee:
Yeah, it just happens that I have the record button and I save the footage on my desktop so it’s it’s because I’m the engineer that you get that impression, but it’s not because I

Tom White:
Okay.

Leonard Lee:
I am the man it it I mean speaking of IOT coffee talk which is which is the show that I Run with a bunch of friends. Okay, it’s a collective. It’s truly a collective. It’s exactly that it’s just a bunch of industry folks in the industry who just have tremendous experience and knowledge that we get together every week, you know, and we talk about all kinds of different topics in a very open, unstructured and irreverent framework, right. And, and what we’ve discovered is it’s actually been really essential. And it has been tremendous actually in helping all of us evolve our thinking about various tech topics, right? I mean, oftentimes we extend out of IoT, but anyway, just.

Tom White:
Yeah. No, and I can say as an ex listener and now kind of regular guest, it’s great. And I think what’s really, what I really love about it is the cadence that you have, right? You know, come rain or shine. I mean, I’ve seen you walking through an airport, filming it, right? And I think that’s really nice just to get together to talk about what’s happening. And I think there’s a real place for it. You know, our podcast is slightly more structured. We have people coming on. wanting to talk about products or demos or releases that they may have. But

Leonard Lee:
Right.

Tom White:
I think there’s a place kind of both and all types in the industry.

Leonard Lee:
not.

Tom White:
And I think that’s really important. You know, so you know, what I really want to delve into today is like, like who you are behind the IoT coffee talk, behind NextGov, because I think anyone that’s in IoT know that, you know, you are prolific. Right. I see you. And I don’t know if it’s a LinkedIn algorithm. But I see you a lot posting, I see you a lot of different events, trade shows, with meaningful comments and analysis of the industry in a kind of no-nonsense way. And I really appreciate that because I think IoT can be a confusing landscape for a lot of people. And so the comments you make are really, really good and you’re someone that I’ve looked up to in the industry a lot and I know a lot of other people have. So… It would be great to kind of wind back to say, you know, who is Leonard Lee? How did he get here? And, you know, you know, bringing it back to the start, right? If we could do that, Leonard.

Leonard Lee:
Okay, well, a good way to start is this, is to establish the fact that I am old.

Tom White:
Well you don’t

Leonard Lee:
Well, you know, yeah, you know, it was I think Fernando is one of Billy Crystal’s characters

Tom White:
look it.

Leonard Lee:
that said, it’s better to look good than to feel good. And that’s, I guess, true. I don’t know. But yeah, I’ve been around for a long time. I’ve been in, you know, I started off my career in consulting on 30 years ago. And so I have this really diverse and deep blend of experience across. the entire consulting industry, whether it’s strategy, technology, systems integration, work, custom development. I used to do a lot of that. I don’t do that anymore. It’s just, it’s not what I do. But toward the end of my, where I am right now, or close to where I am right now, I’ve been in industry research. So I’ve been doing a lot of that. And so A lot of the reason why I’ve made that pivot is because I wanted to take the experience that I’ve gathered through three decades of working across industries, solving all kinds of different problems, working with different types of technologies and helping clients that I started to work with when I was at Gartner, basically make sense out of what’s in front of them. And what… may what they might be able to consider and pursue going forward. Right. And so one of the fortunate things that I have, you know, done in the last five years with next curve is be able to use next curve as a channel for doing, basically doing what I’m passionate about. Right. It’s really working on some of these really. um, forward looking, um, topics for some of the biggest tech companies in the, the world, uh, and, and, and doing thought leadership, right? Um, just synthesizing experience, going through and cutting through a lot of the hype that we’ve constantly have suffered. I will say suffered because a lot of people will argue that hype is a good thing.

Tom White:
Mm-hmm.

Leonard Lee:
Yeah. Sort of. But there’s a detrimental side that we always seem to suffer. And it ends up being non-productive. And so, you know, one of the reasons why Next Curve is around is I like to help everyone, the industry, cut through the hype, figure out where the floor of value is, you know, the ground truth on value, and help the industry by helping the industry get a good feel for where technologies are today and what can be done to express value through their organizations and what they do as well as the industry as a whole, industries as a whole. So.

Tom White:
Yeah, thank you. That’s really needed, right? I hadn’t realized that you were so deep in the consultancy and SLA in the past, actually. That’s interesting.

Leonard Lee:
Wow, yeah.

Tom White:
I didn’t realize. I mean, it’s definitely something we should talk about off

Leonard Lee:
Yeah, sometimes I forget to tell you truth.

Tom White:
there at some point.

Leonard Lee:
I told you, I’m old.

Tom White:
Well, I think it’s really interesting the point you’ve made, Dan. I’m going to ask you a question. So, you know, at what point does it become… does the hype become unhealthy then? So you mentioned the hype’s good to a degree, but

Leonard Lee:
Yeah.

Tom White:
when is it not?

Leonard Lee:
Well, okay. So when it’s not is when it, um, it gets beyond, it becomes severely detached from reality. Right. So, uh, you know, like one of the great examples that we’re seeing today is generative AI. And there’s a broad category, uh, how people are talking about it, how people are pushing it is very detached from the reality. So if you if you’re researching the technology, the state of the technology, like what I do, and if you follow me on LinkedIn, or if you will follow me on my research portal, or next research portal, you understand this. That is what I do. I am in, you know, I have a lot of experience doing this stuff. So I’m always looking at as a base of What is the state of the technology? And when the expectations, the way people talk about it, goes above a certain threshold of sensibility, that’s when I think it starts to develop a potential for future detriment, right? Because at the moment it seems benign. But long term, we’ve seen it time and time again. We’ve seen it with crypto. We’ve seen it with AI 1.0, AI 2.0, AI X.0. Okay, this might be generative AI, maybe, what is it? AI X.0 plus one.

Tom White:
Hmm.

Leonard Lee:
This is a constant cycle and dynamic that we see. play out and it’s just weird. We always seem to expect a different outcome, but it rarely doesn’t happen, right? And, you know, whether it’s 5G or IOT, right? Think about it. Yeah, there’s all, there’s, disappointment is almost a given.

Tom White:
Mmm.

Leonard Lee:
And for people who actually know the state of the technology,

Tom White:
I don’t-

Leonard Lee:
Engineers that I know they’re going, why are they talking about stuff like this? You know what I’m saying? They go, you know, technology can’t do that.

Tom White:
Yeah.

Leonard Lee:
Oh, we’re years away from being able to do that. Why are these guys talking about this technology in this way? And why are they building applications with this technology in this way, setting this kind of expectation of value and utility and revolution, you know? And so I think anyway, that’s where I come.

Tom White:
No, I think I completely agree. And I think it’s hard, isn’t it? Because when we’re talking about bleeding edge technology or futurists, it’s hard to know what’s fact and what’s fiction because

Leonard Lee:
Yeah.

Tom White:
the lines are quite blurred actually sometimes because it could be that we could get to that point, but we might not be there yet. And it could be over hype. But I think there’s some real world consequences of this. I mean, just the other day I was listening to the BBC World Service and they were talking about a lot of these effects and crypto exchanges that were set up that soccer teams and football teams were sponsoring, right? And paying hundreds of thousands, millions in cases. And they were all scams, right? They were just all scams to take people’s money. And so I think the work that you do… and others like you in this space across all facets of technology, I think is really, really important. And I think that’s a really important message to say to all our viewers and listeners because you do need some people that you can rely on to separate the fact from fiction. Otherwise, there are consequences

Leonard Lee:
Right. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And this stuff is real. We see it happen all the time. If

Tom White:
of this.

Leonard Lee:
you don’t, it’s just because you’re caught up in the cycle. But and I might sometimes that, you know, I have some folks and you know, you because how do you see all this stuff is like, you know, it’s just recognizing what you are, where the technologies are, and how people are talking about stuff. And if, again, going back to what I said, if you do the base research and your foundational research in state of technology, you will understand whether or not discourse is detached from reality. Right. It’s, it, but the tricky part is, um, building a voice around that because it’s not fun, it’s fun to put all kinds of gizmo ish stuff out there. You can draw eyeballs. I mean, it works great for. engagement, right?

Tom White:
Yeah.

Leonard Lee:
Nobody wants to hear someone say, look, this is the reality of what we’re looking at, right? And, and, and what it, one of the challenges is what I discovered, uh, through my journey at next curve is that it takes a long time for you to build an audience based on that kind of platform perspective, because Uh, you know, it just does, I mean, I’m not putting out like cute cat videos and stuff like that. That’s not it, right?

Tom White:
Yeah. Yeah.

Leonard Lee:
I’m not telling people this is how great this not so great product is, or this is how revolutionary this technology is going to be. I mean, I get plenty of fodder. I listen to what some people are saying about tech technologies and I said, no, not even close, right? So there’s always a correction or a, uh, a grounding opportunity for my audience, right? I say, look, you know, watch out for this kind of stuff, because it’s actually detached from reality, right? This is what’s actually happening. Like, for instance, there has been no real revolution in AI, what has been the revolution is someone decided, let’s put this out in the wild. And we talk about a lot about that on IoT coffee talk about how certain practices, especially coming out of Silicon Valley, foster sometimes some dubious behaviors and decision making. And so the thing is that the technology is continually in a state of research. There’s problems that have not been solved that people have been working on for a long, long, long, long time. Um, and, and where it gets, uh, I think where it gets, uh, starts to become, uh, very dubious and potentially dangerous is that when things just go off the rails in terms of, uh, that, uh, the grounding, right. And then, you know, things tip over. Uh, it’s inevitable, you know, because when you hear people talk about something and they’re claiming that it does something that it can’t do. you know, something’s gonna happen. I mean, it’s Yeah. So,

Tom White:
Yeah.

Leonard Lee:
but there’s there. Yeah, my clients definitely find on the advisory side of things definitely find value in in my perspective, because I you know, I kind of tell it like it is and they themselves are exposed to a lot of, you know, hype, they’re reactive to it, right? Because, oh, hey, look, someone says this is a gajillion dollar market opportunity, we got to do something, we got to come up with a story. But then sometimes the better story, the sustainable story is exactly not that.

Tom White:
Thanks for watching!

Leonard Lee:
Do you know what I’m saying?

Tom White:
Hmm, hmm, hmm.

Leonard Lee:
But it takes a while for brands and companies to be comfortable in their own and then find their own identity, their own purpose in reacting to the latest hype. Right? But there is definitely a compulsion. You know, I’m attending RSA and then they’re talking about Gen AI all over the place. It’s like, well, you know, you’re not really making it fit the agenda and what you guys do, but okay, I get it. In order to be cool, you have to have a Gen AI story, right?

Tom White:
Yeah.

Leonard Lee:
I mean, we see people do that all the time. They did it with blockchain. They did it with everything. They do it with everything, right? So.

Tom White:
I think, do you know what the irony is with with Gen.ai for me is people are saying how it’s going to take over certain people’s jobs and blogs etc and content creation but people listen to the opinion of the journalists on their view of that topic and that’s what Gen.ai can’t do so people listen to your opinion. Um, adversely, if, if there was a review of reviewing cars, they want his, his or her impression on that, not Gen AIs kind of boilerplate, right? So that’s kind of the irony in that kind of situation is that your, your, you know, your clients trust you for your, your view, your experience and your 30 years to give them an honest appraisal of what you believe as opposed to Gen AIs stock answer, which is often wrong, right? You know?

Leonard Lee:
Oh yeah, no, I mean, it just makes it will simply make stuff up occasionally.

Tom White:
you know.

Leonard Lee:
And I hate that we’re doing this because I just don’t want to talk about gen AI.

Tom White:
Hahahaha! It was about to come up.

Leonard Lee:
I really don’t.

Tom White:
It’s about to come up on any podcast in the world right now about any

Leonard Lee:
I know it’s like, yeah, well, you know, it makes for such a great example.

Tom White:
subject. It was about to creep in somewhere. Sí, sí. Sí.

Leonard Lee:
And, you know, it’s a case study that exemplifies why next curve is around

Tom White:
Entonces.

Leonard Lee:
and why I do what I do, you know, and, but you’re absolutely right. And, and, but yeah, let, let, let’s get off gen AI. I think people have had a earful of that stuff. So, the next topic.

Tom White:
We’re absolutely part of that. I wanted to talk about how you can become a thought leader in IoT, right? And how you can become a trusted individual. And I think, you know, when we were doing our discovery call about this, you know, you had the answer that people don’t really want to hear, right? And it would be great to talk about that. How can… How can you get to the point where your views and your opinions are trusted on that subject matter?

Leonard Lee:
Yeah, the key thing is get out there. Find your voice. Be able to speak on a topic or topics and lead the discussion. And what that entails is get away from the cut and paste. Synthesize. And I think for me, the thought leaders that I follow or that I look at, you know, folks like Rob, you know, folks like, you know, Rick, a lot of there, there’s a lot of experience base. perspective that’s being shared that really, these individuals lead the conversation or if they enter a room, they will basically suck up a lot of the oxygen that is because they have the courage, okay, number one, to express themselves, share their thoughts, that’s number one. Number two is that they have that foundational experience and knowledge that they can then channel in addressing problems that audiences are facing. And it really is about speaking to problems and challenges. And so that’s where I lean back a lot on my own delivery experiences, basically going out there and trying to do all the change management and digital transformation and operational re-engineering and all that stuff. Having been there and done that, I think is really an important experience set to bring into. thought leadership. Otherwise, going back to what I was saying before about hype, you don’t have a lot of grounding. Do you know what I’m saying? There’s just a lot of theory. And oftentimes, academics and theory are detached from what people actually experience. So that’s where veteran business practitioners or technology practitioners or practitioners in general, people who actually do stuff. they see a lot of these academic pieces and then just go, what is that, you know?

Tom White:
Yeah. Yeah.

Leonard Lee:
I have no idea what that is.

Tom White:
Yeah.

Leonard Lee:
Hopefully that will-

Tom White:
It sounds like an alarm going off, but hopefully it will stop. It’s all good.

Leonard Lee:
What should we do?

Tom White:
Let’s just pause for a sec, we’ll keep the recording going. Do you want

Leonard Lee:
Okay.

Tom White:
to see if you can turn it off somehow? Alright.

Leonard Lee:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tom White:
Definitely sounds like an apple alarm. I thought it was an ice cream fan outside. Ha ha ha. You got it.

Leonard Lee:
You know what?

Tom White:
Hahaha

Leonard Lee:
I’ll bring it over. It’s comical. Sorry about this, guys. I thought I had all of the alarms turned off. It just happens

Tom White:
Hey, no worries.

Leonard Lee:
that Samsung sent me a phone and the alarm went off and I don’t know how to use this thing. And I’m sorry. That’s what I love about the Apple stuff is that all you know, if I hit

Tom White:
That’s alright. That’s why I’ve recognised it. That’s alright.

Leonard Lee:
snooze it snoozes, right? I didn’t expect this thing to go off. Let me see.

Tom White:
That’s all good. It just reminded me to turn off my watch as well, actually, which I’ve done. I always forget to do that.

Leonard Lee:
Okay, it’s off.

Tom White:
All right, cool. We’ll just go back into it because I wanted to ask you a question around techno enthusiasts and technologists. So I’ll just ask that. It’ll be fine. We’ll sort of splice it. Um, so, so, so Leonard, this is something that’s quite, uh, personal to me, I would say, because my individual background was from, um, embedded engineering at university I studied. And so I was quite close to the metal, right? On this stuff. I kind of understood it from a silicon. But over the years I kind of stepped away from that and I believe have come more of a techno enthusiast as opposed to a technologist because I’m not so close to it anymore. And I think sometimes perhaps I’ve suffered with a bit of imposter syndrome actually in the IoT landscape because I am not so close to the actual mechanics of the business so to speak. And I wanted to ask your question on that you know. What is your view on the techno enthusiast as opposed to the technologist? And do you see value in both of them when it comes to putting out content around IoT?

Leonard Lee:
Yeah, you know, the thing is that I don’t think anyone’s purely a I mean, I think you kind of have to be both, right? It’s a matter. It’s a gray thing. It’s not a black and white thing. I mean, some people just like to write about technology, you can’t be absent, you shouldn’t be or at least you most folks who actually make it in terms of becoming it having influence or a voice. have a little bit of both, right? And you certainly can’t be a thought leader without being somewhat of a techno enthusiast, right? And having a voice, wanting to say something about it, share perspective. I mean, your perspective is grounded in some knowledge of technology, technical knowledge, right? It’s not absent of it. I think if it was, you’re gonna have a lot of trouble finding a an audience, although I do know some folks that have found audiences that don’t seem to have a technical, you know, background, and that may be just for certain categories, but for IoT, definitely. I mean, if you’ve you, if you don’t have a technical background, I think it’s very difficult to, to talk through the the prevailing challenges that the industry has that practitioners face, and you’ll just have trouble resonating, right? And so maybe you’re somewhere on the spectrum and that’s okay, and you’re doing what you’re doing, you’re providing value to an audience that is engaging with you, and I think that’s all that really matters. Uh, and we’re all playing out our own purpose, right? And it just, it just may be that your purpose is not the same as mine. I definitely know that it’s not, and that’s entirely. Okay. There’s nothing wrong with it. There’s nothing better or worse or none of that. Right. I totally appreciate what you do. Uh, and I’m fortunate that some folks. uh, appreciate what I do and find value in what I do. And I’m happy, you know, I’m happy doing what I do. And that is all that frigging counts. That’s all that counts. Right? Who cares about labels?

Tom White:
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I completely agree. And thank you for the kind words, you know, and I really respect all the content you put out there as well. I think I think ultimately people talking about the subject matter is a good thing. I think we would worry when people aren’t talking about it. I

Leonard Lee:
Yeah.

Tom White:
think that I think that’s the main thing, which kind of leads me on quite nicely to a kind of big question around the current state of IoT. Everyone has a different opinion on this. scale of diversity, monopolization, obviously we’ve had some big curveball, well not curveballs depending on how you look at it, but some major players kind of stepping out or bowing out or changing. You know, IoT 2023, you know, where are we, what is your opinion on it?

Leonard Lee:
Um, yeah, my opinion is that we’re all over the map. Um, and, um, you know, I wrote this piece, geez, going almost six years ago called if you want to get value out of IOT, just stop talking about IOT. And it suggests something that there is nothing. I mean, IOT is just a concept, right? And, uh, somehow we’ve made it a market or people have defined it as a market. put out some numbers and, you know, uh, I don’t think it’s any secret. Disappointed of a lot of people. I mean, we’re talking about, and not only just people who are practitioners going, who have invested a lot of time going, developing skills and competencies in different domains needed for the IOT, but investors, uh, you know, um, uh, just, um, uh, a whole bunch of people. Uh, and, um, the thing is, is I think the state of the IOT is this, is that we’re, we’re in the, the audience is in a state of, uh, disillusionment. Okay. Uh, it, it, it, and we’re starting to come out of it because one of the things that I see is this, uh, transition, uh, toward, uh, a focus on problem solving. Real, realizing is a mindset shift. This is very, very important, right? Because people aren’t thinking in terms of, Oh, this is going to revolutionize everything and everything’s going to be connected. And, you know, now when you hear these forecast numbers of X billion devices being connected, people just go, you know, I mean, it’s kind of laughable. It, and we’re realizing, okay, that that doesn’t matter. What matters is helping customers, right? helping people, enterprises, organizations, with what can be, you know, helping them with technologies that can solve problems. And realizing that this stuff is, number one, a lot harder than anyone expected. And, you know, pivoting toward a better actually mindset as well as a model for, you know, um, you know, identifying value opportunities and then delivering, uh, on, on those value opportunities. And I think that’s a good thing. So, you know, where we had the detrimental hype, which I call the hump of nonsense. I think we’re starting to in certain sectors, uh, you know, uh, come out of that, that trough of disillusionment and there’s some very, very smart people and persistent people, okay, because they’ve suffered through a lot who are figuring out. And that’s super encouraging.

Tom White:
Yeah, I think that’s a fantastic overview. And I’ve heard this time and time again, and I think it’s really important that our listeners understand that, that, you know, the success of IoT will be measured in the fact that it just is there, you know. We don’t talk about the internet, but the internet is just there. The IoT will just be there. It’s solving problems, right? It’s solving issues through connectivity. And that’s it in a nutshell. And do you think that’s one of the biggest misconceptions and that people kind of see it as this kind of market in its own right, rather than actually being a concept and a facility to solve a problem, whatever that may be. Are there any other misconceptions that people have sometimes when they hear the word diety?

Leonard Lee:
Yeah. Now the other thing is that there’s a misconception that IoT is a technology.

Tom White:
Mm-hmm.

Leonard Lee:
It’s not a technology. It’s just a concept. It’s like digital twin. Um, I had a chat with Rick Volotta. Actually, we have our own little series going on next curve. And we talked about digital twin and the one thing that he and I agreed on, uh, definitively is that it’s just a concept. And it’s not a market. Uh, it’s just a concept. And I think, um, uh, you know, uh, Losing side of that causes a lot of problems. And it’s also not a, you know, like I said, it’s not a technology. You can’t quantify it and, uh, and, um, you know, define it as such. There’s a lot of people who try to. But then we get that spaghetti mess of like different forecasts and market models and stuff like that. And it’s like, how constructive is this stuff? You know, um, when, uh, when you look at the structure of the market, it’s so

Tom White:
Yeah.

Leonard Lee:
fragmented, I mean, that’s like the only thing everyone says is like, we’re so fra everything is so fragmented is like, guess what that fragmentation is probably never going to go away. And that’s why you don’t see. certain types of scaling these, you know, hypotheses or thesis playing out well, right? You mentioned earlier, some very big guys thought, hey, this is a scale out game. We can just create a platform and everyone’s going to use it and we’re going to make a jillions of dollars, right? That has not happened. And it’s because this misconception, number one, that it’s it’s a technology, and then number two, that it’s somehow a market.

Tom White:
Hmm.

Leonard Lee:
And that caused even some very smart people to get very confused about what’s right in front of them. And there are some very big companies

Tom White:
Mm-hmm.

Leonard Lee:
who’ve been at this game for a long time that are making a slow transition technologically to adopt some of the technological elements that go into this IoT concept, right? But it’s just part of natural evolution of products. You know what I’m saying? Especially in the industrial space.

Tom White:
Yeah.

Leonard Lee:
And so, and then you have, anyway, that is, I mean, we can talk all day about this stuff, but those are the two fundamental misconceptions that everyone has struggled.

Tom White:
Yeah, and I completely agree. We had Dr. Berget Bosch, who I think sits on the chair of the Digital Twin Association and also works for Bosch over in Germany. And we had a similar discussion around digital twins. And I think the problem exists in a land of acromans and abbreviations, it’s easy for people to just lump it into a technology and they don’t actually understand that the… it’s a conceptual idea to a process that could take on many different forms. And it’s as simple as that. And it’s so easy to get confused. And that’s why I think, you know, the work you do, um, and you know, that we’re doing here and other people to kind of cut through that noise is so critical. If we are to make those advancements and if people are to kind of get it.

Leonard Lee:
Yeah.

Tom White:
Um, so yeah, I completely agree with you in terms of. Kind of moving forward, what do you expect to see now that some major players have kind of stepped out and where do you see IoT going? Do you think it will become clear as a concept? Do you think more problems will be solved immediately? Like, in

Leonard Lee:
Yeah.

Tom White:
a kind of real sense, both this year and over the next few years.

Leonard Lee:
Yeah. Well, you know, Rob, Rob and I had this really funny, um, IOT coffee talk, um, where we talked about the need for IOT plumbers. So I think everyone is going to be buying a truck sticking on their IOT logo, IOT XYZ, right? And then putting like a, you know, massive plastic sensor mold, you know, model on top of their van and they’re going to, they’re going to become. plumbers, they’re going to realize, Hey, we got to do this stuff out in the field. This isn’t like a developer sitting in a ivory tower somewhere, you know, a hyperscale data center, crunching numbers. This is this is, you know, roll up your

Tom White:
Yeah.

Leonard Lee:
sleeves kind of work, go out there and actually implement a system, not just software, a system, you know, And, uh, and then build an application on top of it. And it’s, it’s a cyber physical one. And I think that’s where it’s going. I think that you hear a lot more talk about systems integrators, which I think is brilliant. It’s where we need to start going, uh, in order for the talent to be channeled into, you know, projects and opportunities that will, uh, help to. Um, scale the concept of IOT, but more importantly, solve problems, you know,

Tom White:
Yeah. Good.

Leonard Lee:
because there’s a lot of potential out there to solve problems. It’s just that buyers are not buying because people are talking a bunch of nonsense.

Tom White:
Mm-hmm.

Leonard Lee:
Right. And that’s sad.

Tom White:
Yeah, it is, it is. And it is tricky to know, you know, which horse to back in this race, right? And who’s doing real stuff and who’s just talking nonsense. When you talk about problems, Alvin, it’s interesting. I always think of a friend of mine, Ken, and if he’s listening to this, he’ll know that I’m gonna talk about this because Ken said to me quite a few years ago that there was a dossier that came out. from the world economic forum, saying the future of a lot of jobs is around problem solving, right? And he’s got a concept called big unsolved meaningful problems. And it’s a framework to talk and strategize about problems both from an operational perspective and also to try and work it out. And I think you’re absolutely right, you know, and I agree that IoT isn’t set on a server. IoT is actually in a field, literally in a field somewhere solving an issue. be

Leonard Lee:
Yeah.

Tom White:
that tracking cows on a dairy farm or whatever, you know, and that’s happening. You know, we’ve had guys on the podcast doing that. And I think that’s

Leonard Lee:
Rob is out in the field right now.

Tom White:
cool, right? Yeah.

Leonard Lee:
He’s posting pictures.

Tom White:
That’s right, yeah. And I think that’s the cool thing about it. I think that’s what’s attracted to me to IoT in the first place, that you can do stuff that which otherwise was impossible. you know, through low powered sensors and battery harvesting and, you know, and so on and so forth, right? And I think, you know, I’m with you on that problem solving aspect of it is where we need to be headed. So, you know, I think that’s fantastic. How can people, you know, in your view, you know, kind of differentiate themselves then compared to the crowd and what is a kind of congested market at the kind of lower end in terms of the startups? You see a lot of IoT. you know, like 20 to 50 people, and then it goes bang into a hyperscaler. There were a few, but I don’t know many. How can people differentiate and actually get that into some sort of scale up and actually working in your opinion level?

Leonard Lee:
Um, there’s a couple of, well, there’s a couple of things that has to have to happen. You have to have a few players out there that are going to focus on problem solving. And then they’re going to be working with a network of partners. I’m not going to use the term ecosystem, but they’re going to be working with the network of partners and vendors, uh, that, uh, don’t have an identity crisis. and know how they fit, become very good at what they do in supporting a smaller number of, let’s call them, consultative SIs that can go out and deal with the diversity, the complexity that’s out in the field and bring simplifying solutions and technologies to solve problems. And not everyone is going to be playing that role. The important thing for the partners of these few, need to be very clear on what their value is and be able to tune into that.

Tom White:
Yeah.

Leonard Lee:
Cause I talked to a lot of IOT companies that have an identity crisis. They don’t know who they are.

Tom White:
Mm. Mm. Mm. So,

Leonard Lee:
And, um, yeah. Uh, and so as that becomes, uh, resolved to a certain degree, I think that’s where, uh, you know, people can differentiate themselves. Do you know what I’m saying? And I don’t, you need to differentiate yourself in a massive, uh, field of players.

Tom White:
Yeah.

Leonard Lee:
You, you differentiate yourself, uh, probably more in a local sense, more in a specific sense. Um, you know, as a contributor or a player in problem solving.

Tom White:
I think that’s such a great point to make and for any businesses out there at the moment who might be having an identity crisis, whether they admit it or not,

Leonard Lee:
Oh, yeah, yeah.

Tom White:
is what can you do with the sensors that you have and that you want to deploy and the software that you can build to solve a problem? Because if you look at software defined, you look at the car now, I mean the car is basically a computer, right? the mechanical nature of that with fluids and bits and pieces is gone. Um, so one other problems, you know, could be solved by doing this. And I think that’s, that’s at the heart of all of it, isn’t it? You know?

Leonard Lee:
Math.

Tom White:
Um, so I completely agree, completely agree. Leonard, we’ve got a question, uh, from our audience, uh, which I want to ask you, which has been frosted in front, in front of me for this podcast.

Leonard Lee:
Really?

Tom White:
Uh, yeah. And it’s. And it’s actually quite similar to what we were talking about, but I’ll read it as it is in front of me now. What are some of the most promising new IoT startups and technologies you’re currently following?

Leonard Lee:
Oh, I think one of the more interesting things that I see happening, the tiny ML, I think is really interesting.

Tom White:
Yeah.

Leonard Lee:
A lot of the new, you know, heterogeneous computing technologies that are going into new SOC or chip design. I think that’s really a big deal. It sounds super boring, right? It’s unsexy. It’s not like, you know, process stuff, right? We’re not talking about like zero nanometer excitement here,

Tom White:
But it’s important, you know?

Leonard Lee:
but these are all like, huge architectural shifts happening that are not futuristic. These are now things that will have big implications on the, of intelligence we can put out there, especially in terms of augmenting sensors. We’re not talking about AI that’s going to take over the world. This is very narrow, very specific stuff. But to be able to take fuzzy logic and augment what a sensor can do has a lot of implications, not only in terms of capability, but also how we can deploy our system. architect and deploy systems. And that has broad implications, whether from an edge computing architecture standpoint or the architectures that devices themselves. So new form factors, new ways of new possibilities in terms of how we can think about IoT solutions and systems. So I don’t know.

Tom White:
Yeah.

Leonard Lee:
Kind of boring, but you know what? That’s sometimes the stuff that matters is just not that sexy.

Tom White:
Yeah, to be honest, I don’t think it is. And I don’t think our listeners would feel that either. We had Yan on from Edge Impulse on the podcast. We’ve had a again, even Qualcomm.

Leonard Lee:
Thank you. Bye.

Tom White:
So, you know, we’re fans of TinyML and, you know, the possibilities. And I think that’s really, really important, isn’t it actually? Because if you look at machine learning in a concept of sat in a data center somewhere with quantum style computing, that’s all very well and good, but it’s not being done there and then. at the

Leonard Lee:
Yeah.

Tom White:
device, at the edge, at the sensor. And that’s from a problem solving perspective, linking back to an earlier comment,

Leonard Lee:
Yeah.

Tom White:
probably actually closer to actually working something out there and then, isn’t it? So.

Leonard Lee:
Yeah. And people have to think about what, what is all, what, what are the applications for all that GPU power and AI stuff happening up in the cloud? A lot of it’s for just personalization people. It’s not something that’s going to save the world. You know, maybe there are a few research organizations that are running, you know, crazy models that, you know, like a weather models and stuff like that. Uh, but most of it’s for advertising people. That’s what AI is being used for in the, in the data center. So I think the more, more important versions of AI are going to happen, uh, on

Tom White:
Yeah, yeah.

Leonard Lee:
across the edge to solve problems, augment things, not replace, augment,

Tom White:
Thank you. Hmm.

Leonard Lee:
augment, because we already do, we’re already at six Sigma. you know, the stuff will help us get to some valuable seven sigma. Yeah.

Tom White:
Leonard, absolutely fantastic insights. We’ve got some quick, quick fire questions for you. Non-IoT, non-tech related, but just an insight into your mind.

Leonard Lee:
Oh no.

Tom White:
If,

Leonard Lee:
Dangerous territory.

Tom White:
if, I’ll keep them PC. If an actor were to play you in a story of your life, who would it be and why?

Leonard Lee:
Oh man, I hate these things, man.

Tom White:
Yeah, well I’ve got another two for you, so…

Leonard Lee:
You know what? Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Tom White:
I’m crazy.

Leonard Lee:
Why? Because, you know, I think one of the statements that he’s become famous for is really important. And, you know, I’ve really taken it to heart is that there’s no plan B, you know, in order to make something happen for yourself, in whatever shape or form or form of expectation, there is no plan B, go for it. You know, and that

Tom White:
Yeah, I love, I love, I love.

Leonard Lee:
And that’s what I’ve tried to do. It’s tough. Super tough.

Tom White:
I like that. Do you know what? I just looked at a reminder that I’ve got on my computer and I heard something the other day and that reminded me of it and it was the phrase, how you do anything is how you do everything.

Leonard Lee:
Yeah.

Tom White:
And I like that. And I think it

Leonard Lee:
Yeah.

Tom White:
works with a Plan

Leonard Lee:
Wow.

Tom White:
B. Yeah,

Leonard Lee:
That’s really deep.

Tom White:
it is quite deep. If you could learn any new skill, what would it be and why?

Leonard Lee:
Um, I’d love to figure out how to play the drums.

Tom White:
Nice.

Leonard Lee:
So I play guitar. I played bass.

Tom White:
You’re a great guitarist as well, right?

Leonard Lee:
I don’t know. I I’m, I’m okay. I can, I can handle my own, but I’d love to be able to play drums.

Tom White:
Nice.

Leonard Lee:
So how’s that?

Tom White:
At the same time.

Leonard Lee:
Uh, that would be even, well, you have to do that first thing before you can get to

Tom White:
Hahaha

Leonard Lee:
that really cool thing, but yes, I I’d love to be a one man band at some point.

Tom White:
Hahahaha!

Leonard Lee:
you know, playing all the different parts, but yeah, I still need to learn how to play the drums.

Tom White:
All right, last question. Favorite entrepreneur in tech over the years, who would it be for you?

Leonard Lee:
Oh, geez, I think that’s easy. Um, is Steve jobs, you know, um, I don’t think there’s anybody that’s been more

Tom White:
Nice.

Leonard Lee:
influential and profound and thought leading, uh, it, we still, you know, we still get insane stuff out of, uh, uh, the, the man’s legacy, you know? Um, and I know that’s probably not entirely a popular answer, but I mean, geez, you know, sometimes you just have to recognize. You know, and yeah, it’s got to be him.

Tom White:
Yeah, I agree. You can’t underestimate Steve Jobs. It’s come up a few times, but yeah, thank you for that. Leonard,

Leonard Lee:
Yeah.

Tom White:
where can people find out more about you and Netcurve and the IoT Coffee Talk? Can you share some socials?

Leonard Lee:
Yeah, yeah, sure. So this is very well rehearsed. Let me see if I can pull it off though, because in execution, sometimes I falter. So you can check out the next curve research portal at www.next-curve.com. There’s a bunch of content there that you can engage with. I post all my insights and research there. You can also check out my newsletter on LinkedIn. I have one that has somehow caught fire and got like 21,000 subscribers in two months, which I think is not too shabby. Right. And it’s a great one

Tom White:
Wow. Wow.

Leonard Lee:
stop shop for all the stuff that I publish out there across different channels. And, you know, I have a YouTube channel as well, something that I had didn’t do a lot of in the past this video blogging stuff, but V logging stuff, but you can go and check out the content that I have there. I cover events, do like V logs of, uh, you know, various industry events as well as, um, you know, company events that I attend through the year. And, uh, yeah. IOT coffee talk. Yes. Check us out there. Uh, it’s at www.iotcoffeetalk.com. Um, you know, that you get to hang out with me and my friends every week. And we just talk about the latest and greatest stuff that everyone’s talking about. We just put a little bit of irreverent spin on things. And that whole program is really important to us because we support a charity called Elevate Archive.

Tom White:
Yeah.

Leonard Lee:
our kids at www.elevateourkids.com. And that’s where we’re putting connectivity as well as compute in the hands of children and underserved communities to address the digital divide and bring equity to education. And so, yeah, check it out, buy a shirt. We have a really cool shirt. And if you’re not into charity, you know, and you’re into shirts. just buy a shirt and then you will indirectly

Tom White:
Thank you.

Leonard Lee:
be making a charitable contribution. And yeah, that’s it.

Tom White:
Leonard, thank you for coming on the IIT podcast.

Leonard Lee:
Well, thanks for having me. It’s been a pleasure. And you know, we’ll see you on IOT coffee talk soon, right? Tom.

Tom White:
Yeah, absolutely. All right, I think we’re good. Yes, that’s a wrap. Thank you so much.

Leonard Lee:
Oh, okay, cool. How was it?

Tom White:
Yeah, really good. I thought it was great.